VERY IMPORTANT : AndyRage Said :"What would ArtRage...

[Weeks]

My englis is not good enough, but i shall try to open a conversation from Andy's citation..

I wrote in another post (mirrormaskman post) :


You know Andy,

I wouldn't be unhappy if I could replace the other soft from my checklist..
by ArtRage Pro...

I believe in that idea.. :D

Weeks


And Andy wrote back :


If we went 'pro', we'd have to do work on CMYK support, Colour profiles, many import and export formats, precision tools... we'd have to meet professionals expectations, while fitting all those things into the interface...

Really, it's a whole bunch more fun working on cool paint tools for me!
;)

However... let's play pretend for a moment... Suppose we were considering a 'pro' level ArtRage. What would you really like to see added, changed, or removed?
Photoshop Plugin support?
Selection sets?
Editable spline paths for strokes?
Scripting?
Precision digital airbrush?
Is CMYK and ICC colour matching mandatory?
Text tools?
Better memory management for larger documents?

Just for gigglifications, what would make you consider ArtRage a tool with which you could do production-quality art from start to finish.

Maybe this should be a thread in its own right. More than just a 'suggestions for ArtRage'... The question is: What would ArtRage 'Pro' look like to you?

I'm sure we are in front of something very important...!!!

A kind of mission or combat to be delivered.. And we have to support and convince ArtRageTeam about the challenge (they already knows)...

Wich future for ArtRage...?


Ladies, Gentleman... It's your turn...

Weeks..


Sbug51 already answered :


whatever happens to artrage, keep the layout as simple as possible, you guys could animate the bottons, i attached a shot of how it would be like, the tools could just move or slide inside the circle as you move the cursor over the scroll buttons, and this will give more working area and also give you the chance to have more buttons, you could arrange the brushes alone(that is anything that uses a brush like acrylics<i hate acrylics> oil and watercolor.. etc) on a row, and then chalk pencil on another row, i care about the interface alot cause i dont like to see lots of digital furniture around... have them animated, with the option to turn it on or off, of course of course better memory management, and the resolution it must be more than 72, even if it doesn't go pro it should be more.....

[mirrormaskman]

Well for my part I think it works very well unencumbered with the pro features of apps like Photoshop. The simplicity of the interface and the immediacy of the medium really define ArtRage

Developing more cool painting tools and memory management for larger files would be great evolutions for ArtRage.

For pro illustrators and artists the ability to work on hi-rez files, or do hi-rez post work is a must. It is already possible in ArtRage but I've only tried painting a 3000 x 3000 pixel image once. The painting tool kept up pretty well especially considering the 100% brush but there was some lag and I haven't tried big files with many layers. (My computer is a P4 2.6 MHz, 1.5 GIG RAM)

Other features might include a basic selection tool and/or masking tool.
Also the ability to change to an oversized brush... bigger than the current 100% and the addition of brush shapes: Flat Head, Round Head, Stipple Brush etc would be great... maybe customs brushes too.

The 3d glitter might evolve to 3d paint splashes of different types...you could have a Pollock brush, a De Kooning, a Francis Bacon for instance. When I last painted an 8 foot by 8 foot painting I literally threw the paint on and then worked into it. With Impasto the textures really build up and I've already tried a combo of the glitter and paint tube which work quite well but it would be great if there was a library of scaleable splashes, paint daubs and brushes too as this would add to the already formidable armory.

I don't think it’s necessary to provide CMYK or Photoship plug-in support since most pro's will have these tools already. ArtRage fits nicely into the combo application workflow that most of us use and the fact that it is so simple to use and so immediate really helps it stand out from the more burdened "serious" apps. Having said that make no mistake I consider ArtRage a SERIOUS app... but it also benefits from a very unassuming front end with simple but powerful features.

The "Pro" question is an interesting one because ArtRage could become the finest painterly painting simulation ever coded... in fact it already is. So you could go deeper into this aspect of its possibilities and/or develop it as a contender to Photoshop. But I think it would then become a very different program. At the moment it's definitely not a Photoshop clone and its more fluid and immediate than Painter so...

vive la revolution, vive la ArtRage : )

[AndyRage]

Dont go thinking of this discussion as affecting ArtRage as it it now.
Let's pretend that we could create an entirely new application.
ArtRage Professional Edition.

You can assume that even if that should happen, ArtRage 'Standard edition' would still exist and still be supported, and still get more features and tools.

What is it that could be added or changed in a product based on the ArtRage technology that would make it more complete as a professional tool.

AndyRage.

[Vandellyr]

I love the simple interface. I have more room to Paint :)

I think it would be neat if you add more tools is to have the ability to rotate the circle to get to more tools like what was said above.

Another thing I think would be nice is snap in circles...let me see if I can explain....

Let folks choose from a list what options they want on the Tools Circle and be able to save different circles and snap those into the corner when they want to change the Tool Set. Then you still get the nice clean single circle with what you want to work with. That way someone might want....The roller, airbrush and paint tools one day..but be able to change to a nice pen, pencil, ink set for sketching.. :wink:

For those that want all the bells and whistles, you could use your top left and right corners for optional addtional Tool circles.

I also would love to have a mixing pallette similar Painter. Just so I can smear some paint around to the color I want to see before I apply it. :)

[justG]

The work I see posted on these forums is frequently indistinguishable from non-digital paintings/drawings/sketches. If that's not professional, I dunno what is.

That said, there's loads of different kinds of art, and I would say that AR in its current form lends itself to sketching, drawing, and painting. Were I a comic book artist or a CADer, I would probably ask for a pen tool (not to create paths, but like a real pen -- what's it called? Rapidograph or something?) and a way to constrain my brush stroke (i.e. shift = straight line [and if that already exists, oops, I've not tried it]).

- Gita, who's well chuffed that she missed the forum outage. =]

[Edit] I really also love Vandellyr's suggestions. What a brilliant first post. Welcome to the forums!

[Therm0s]

To be perfectly honest, I'd rather see Artrage remain pure to it's purpose. There are a gamut of "task-specific" applications out there, each with it's own distinct corner of the market (and each with it's freeware/shareware counterpart). It's been my experience that the more you slap into a program, the further beyond practicality it becomes. I've used a lot of expensive software in the past, and have consistently found that spending more on software gets me no closer to achieving a result. For example:

Gimp already has more features than I know how to use, so why would I continue to pay for Photoshop? Photoshop is literally packed with features that Gimp doesn't have (obviously), but how many of those do I require to get a result?

Blender is incredibly powerful 3D freeware. Same argument as above. I've used 3DS Max, Maya(PLE), and SoftimageXSI (demo), but could never justify continuing to front the money when Blender alone knows how to do more than I.

SwishMax is a great substitute for Flash, if you just want to make a dynamic webpage and don't need a web-based portal capable of solving world hunger. It's actuall better than Flash at some things (text/animation effects)!

Moho rulz for 2d animation (even some Flash and 3D). ToonBoom/PAP/etc. can run into the thousands for full-featured versions, but when you just want to make a character (or a picture of a friend) dance around and explode, Moho's worth every penny.

While there may be a market for a "professional" version of Artrage, it would only serve to overlap another "industry standard" packages. Artrage would wind up being a knock-off of Painter with some of the post-processing of Photoshop, Vetors and animation of Illustrator/Flash and maybe some of the print/layout support of Quark thrown in. Personlly, I think Artrage handles the specific task at hand (mimicing real-life materials) better than any of the aforementioned. Combine this with the other tools, and you've got your "full functionality".

In a nutshell, if you're a professional there's an obvious need to be compliant with the standards and expectations of a job, therefore you should invest in the necessary "industry standard" software. Artrage is pure and simple - elegant and focused. Attempting to go up against Painter or others would dilute Artrage's purpose and draw attention away from being the perfect tool for the job. Who needs a "Swiss-Army Screwdriver"? Besides, I defy someone to present a production graphics situation that can't be achieved with some combination of the tools listed above (the entirety of which can be purchased/downloaded for less than any single "industry standard" program mentioned).

Thanks again to the developers. Artrage is a bargain at any price.

This marks the end of an apparent rant.
Thanks for your time.
Humor me if you must. :roll:

-Therm0s out.

[pentool]

I dunno who is familiar with Alias Sketchbook Pro, but they use a similar (if not the same) tool circle at the bottom left of the screen. It has only 4 or 5 tools in the circle, but they "hide" the rest of the tools in a very clever way under the visible ones. If there will be more tools in the future in AR, myabe this would give some ideas how it could be worked out.

For those who don't wanna install the demo just for the look of it, there's a little image here: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=6848450

Once you click on an item in the toolbar and hold the mouse, it pops up a little circle of other tools that are related to the selected tool. Once you select, the selected item/tool image appears on the circle.

[amergin]

In one of my first paint apps (PISA) back in the early eighties I used a device I called the 'screen switch' which allowed the user to throw their pen (not literally) off the top of their tablet and back again and this would toggle between a menu (full screen) and their painting. The action took very little effort to master for a user and meant that they had more or less instant access to two screens - one for selecting options, colours etc, the other for painting on. 'Gestures' have been developed a bit since then but have never captured the immediacy and simplicity of the 'screen switch'. It was easy to code it so that a user never inadvertently threw the switch and was an incredible time saver for an artist who didn't want to have to deal with the equivalent of the osx dock reappearing whenever the cursor is anywhere near it - it also of course meant an uncluttered screen. Hope this makes sense to you.

I would agree with comments by others that artrage is indeed a pro app already - the last thing the world needs is a photoshop competitor - artrage has found an area that photoshop is weak in and excelled at it. I don't know how a developer nowadays can keep up with the constant urging to 'improve' their products, the need to stay in the public eye, etc, etc. I do know from my own experience (and this is from an eternity ago when the world was young) that a small company developing for a big market will probably have to get into bed with a big company in order to make it. My suggestion is to stay small, stay cool, keep out of debt and enjoy your freedom. I would also note that I never patented anything and my brothers-in-law who took over my company when I retired ended up paying for it when an american holding company sued them into liquidation (they could have proved prior invention and use but it would have cost too much to defend in a californian court).

[hype]

i think Ambient Design should buy out Corel, Adobe, and Autodesk, then merge all competing products into one super-huge-mega-whomping-do-everything-you-can-imagine product. i want to be able to paint on a brick wall with india ink using a fern branch as a brush! or, how about a carve-my-initials-in-the-sand-with-my-foot tool?

and, it should still be $20.

i'm just kidding, of course! just trying to make everyone smile a little! ArtRage rules!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

i have no more suggestions for tools or fixes. whatever you guys do is fine by me. if i don't like a new version, i'll reinstall the one i have now, cuz i love that one!

[jdytart]

I don't know how new Artrage is, but I just discovered it a couple of days ago. PLEASE, if you act on many suggestions to add features, upgrade it in some way, make changes - do not change its wonderful essential basis - an amazingly user-friendly and intuitive interface that allows someone like me to grasp the essentials in such a short time. Don't make it unwieldy and extremely difficult and overwhelming to use like some other programs out there, which I have spent months trying to feel at ease with and still feel I'm missing a lot.

Keep it the way it is - keep the glitter (it would be nice to choose among several shapes)... and keep up the good work.

[AndyRage]

Just keep in mind that we're talking about two separate products:
ArtRage, which will always have the emphasis on simple interface, and tools which mimic the real-world as much as possible.
And an imaginary 'ArtRage Pro', which can be, well anything really as it doesn't exist. It would have all the functionality of ArtRage (but probably in a different interface), plus professional tools, and whatever it is you think would make it a product for professional artists who have deadlines, boards of directors, and picky clients.

[Stephen Lo Piano]

One nice thing about Art Rage is that you have tools to create yet nothing is stock photos, picture tubes, or any other type of feature that many graphic arts programs have that lend themselves to difficult controversial issues of limited use and copyright restriction. Many of the end user agreements that other programs have restrict your finished product. For example; I like the program Broderbund Print Shop Deluxe for its excellent font styles and lettering effects. You cannot use this program commercially to sell finished products as a creator of graphic arts. You may use it for advertisements in your business that is not related to creating artwork, likewise you would never be able to copyright anything created with this program. All artwork available with this program is clip art. And of course for fun you can use all features.
There are other programs that have extensive digital art creation features yet you run into problems with using paint tubes that produce repetitive designs or images, stock photos, and clip art. A lot of higher priced software programs allow you to use your finished artwork that you create from scratch for any purpose, yet some of the features have difficult confusing issues involved. For instance, if you select a paint tube from a menu where all other selections are simply oil brush, pastels etc. you would expect the same end user agreement limitations would apply, yet depending on what that tool produces you run into all kinds of grey areas of interpretation of restrictions on use.

In conclusion, I would like to see a powerful digital art program that allows the user to take credit for everything produced without restriction. The best way to allow this type of freedom is not include features that require restrictions. As the previous post explained, there are many professional programs designed to speed up the process of the user for fast production.
Okay if you have a business and need to create advertisements for it, or volunteer activity.
On the other hand, Artists need programs that allow them the ability to sell their work or take credit with copyright for what they create. They are willing to pay for this type of freedom.
If you use natural media to create an oil painting, the manufacturer of the canvas, oil paints, and brushes does not restrict you from copyrighting or selling the finished product you create due to the fact that you were using one of their ideas (a brush, paints, canvas) to create the final painting. Likewise all digital art programs should extend the same rights for people using their software. If something is a problem requiring restrictions with use leave it out of the program and find something else compatible that will allow this freedom. So far as creation of the program is concerned I'm all for copyright protection and restricted use. To steal the intellectual work of creating a program is like an artist stealing the idea of a paint brush and then marketing and producing the same brush as their own. To restrict something that was created from using the programs features is a problem for artists. If the ability to sell or copyright cannot be obtained with computer programs, artists are better off returning to natural media.

[sweeneymini]

If I want vector animation, I use Flash or Swish. If I want to make images and graphics, with paths, effects, masking and all the bells and whistles, I use The GIMP. And if I want to have fun painting sketching and doodling, I think I'll love doing it in the simple, yet excellentley intuitive ArtRage2. Its practically perfect for that 8)

So, I don't think I'd really be interested in a pro product. The GIMP has so much of a head start on any new program entering the competition and its freeware.

[Charlie]

Just keep in mind that we're talking about two separate products:
ArtRage, which will always have the emphasis on simple interface, and tools which mimic the real-world as much as possible.
And an imaginary 'ArtRage Pro', which can be, well anything really as it doesn't exist. It would have all the functionality of ArtRage (but probably in a different interface), plus professional tools, and whatever it is you think would make it a product for professional artists who have deadlines, boards of directors, and picky clients.

Personally, I would love to see a version in-between ArtRage and ArtRage Pro as mentioned above and in other threads.

Perhaps 'ArtRage Expert' or 'ArtRage Masterpiece' which is the same as ArtRage but with customisable tools/presets/lighting/tips and a built-in tool designer.

I would be very curious to see a Pro version developed, but I can imagine how difficult it is to define what exactly should go into a Pro version since there are lots of niche markets for graphics software. Where do you stop!

Either way, here are some more suggestions for features or services. (Not that you already have enough suggestions! :lol: )

-- Reference models or drawing aids (e.g. virtual wooden poseable hands, virtual wooden poseable figure/mannequins) 8)
-- A specialist printing service to turn your artwork into prints ready to hang on your wall!
-- Paper, glue and scissors for collages. (glue and glitter!!)
-- Etching tools (negative depth! as opposed to impasto)
-- Thick paper, board or even glass! (for use with etching tools)
-- Sand, salt, beads and other texture tools or shapes for glitter (see Pebeo Mortars for an example http://www.dickblick.com/zz006/44g/)
-- Splash and drip tools
-- Charcoal with crumbly bits
-- Finger paints and finger prints (In the UK, there is a kids art show called SMarteenies that has some nice finger paintings on glass)
and finally
-- A coffee stain tool :D

[Aged P]

"-- A coffee stain tool "

Charlie you just hit on a major difference there!

With Artrage I have never experienced what used to be the sure sign I was getting tired.

Dipping my water colour brush into my coffee! :lol:

[AndyRage]

Hmmm.... that thought about pinable poseable reference models is interesting. It wouldn't need to be a Poser competitor - just a basic wooden figure for proportions and poses.

[Charlie]

It would be great if you could add it! :D (perhaps with a directional light).

Certainly no need for anything as advanced as Poser.

P.S.

This site sells a variety of drawing aids such as a hand, figure, horse and a even a lizard!
http://www.artdiscount.co.uk/acatalog/Catalogue_Index_Drawing_Aids_25.html

[AndyRage]

Yeah - I was thinking simple. Just like the wooden poseable models. The idea being to deliberately avoid tempting people into trying to make scenes with them. (All the sad artists who buy the poseable horsey figure just to play farmers are not allowed to use ArtRage)

Like the references, it would be a tool to inspire and teach, not to be the end result.

[Aged P]

Andy,

I once used Cindy's Pony as a reference for a horse painting!

Just modded the colour and put in a few white bits here and there, painted the missing ear and leg back in.
The customer was thrilled with the detail I had got from a blurred photo the size of bus ticket!

The reference figure would need a few variables.
I've never seen anybody with the proportions of the cheap little wooden ones. Better feet and hands would be good too.

[ingie01]

For the imaginary Pro version....Has anyone mentioned a lasso tool? I find that using bits and pieces from a painting or drawing in progress is stimulating to the imagination.

[turtlemock]

Good suggestions for a Pro version so far...

For me this would work as a wish list for ArtRage Pro.

In keeping with its clean, intuitive interface, I would like to see a visual storyboard format for all us multimedia artists besides a single canvas. Don't forget paper grains like bond paper, smooth bristol, etc. The pencil and felt tip would shine here since we can work on the storyboard in a digital manner, print them out and put them up at a meeting. Also drag and drop capabilty to move individual screens in various order, delete, etc.
As a animator I would love to do this with the ArtRage tools.


For us illustrators who draw in the toon style, a pen feature would be good but include more variations besides the rapidograph ( as mentioned in a previous post), ink brush, sumi brush, croquill pen.

Ability to convert vectorize art into raster layers to be fully blended with the ArtRage tools.

Support more formats in the import/export feature. Targa files?

Not sure on this feature since the eraser does pretty much the same thing but a liquid mask feature. Invert mask also to control the painting area.

On the crayon and pencil feature different tips like chisel, sharp point, flat, etc.

A full watercolor feature with wet-on wet and other watercolor methods like sprinkling salt on a wet surface to get a great effect, use of sponges too.

Save custom tools settings in their own library. I may want a certain pressure, tilt, etc for a certain type of painting.

Multiple reference pictures or maybe put up a flip book instead of a single picture. Sometmes I would borrow a background here, a hair color there, and a skin tone here. Also a small note pad to write down studio notes like refering to a certain page from one our regualr sketchbook.

And keep it all intuitive so unlike the other program I rather not stop painting to hunt for something in a drop down menu. Maybe have the tool menus completely programmable to setup just the tools that I want.

Hope this helps.

[craig deeley]

In my work flow I use ArtRage as a preproduction tool. A visualization tool.
I use this application the way I would normally use various papers and pencils/chalks/pastels/markers and china markers - and less often - erasers or white out.

If I were to look at ArtRage as a start to finish tool _ I would still want it to remain similar to the tool it is now. I would want it as an artists tool. I would rather have ArtRage remain in that area that it is wonderful for: Boldly creating art that simulates natural media.

Painter already exists for the digitally obsessive/compulsive. I have never been able to use that application beyond taking advantage of a few of Its many options and being beaten down by its (used to be worse and still quite) insane UI.

Photoshop has some great features - but for fast development of "painting" imagery I use mostly the brush tool and a few custom brushes and the fast key commands for changing brush size and opacity.

If I were to use ArtRage as it is - keeping the emulation of natural media as the overarching definition of the apps use... but a step up - as a "pro" tool - I would love to have at the least:

Resolution options:
from 72 dpi/ppi to 300

Print Color space options:
CMYK preview - at least - would be handy. I really would not need a full CMYK conversion but a preview and perhaps a color limited palette (an approximation) would be enough to facilitate getting imagery to print.

Color adjusting options:
All the standard Brightness/Contrast, Saturation etc controls. Many of these are available at the system level on a Mac (I am Mac)
I tend to be shy about heavy color and contrast and must adjust most of my ArtRage images after creating them.

Selection options for masking (channels and masks in Photoshop) for controlling where pigment gets laid down... I am thinking more in the old sense of masking in airbrush art.
Using a brush as a way to define a selection (Photoshop) would be fun.
Or a lasso tool like thing or even better a paper/tape emulation that could be laid down like the roller...
and if there was a paper/tape emulation might as well go with collage options!

A constrain key to restrict a stroke to a straight line...

A water(color) simulation tool. <- I am throwing that in just to have something outrageous on the list.



Craig

[hevonen]

I would like to see imaginary Artrage Pro to stay quick, menuless painting tool geared towards illustration, concept art, matte paintings and such.

It would still revolve around painting naked. It would have no filters nor photo manipulation tools. PS and such exist already for photographers and filters are a disgrace in painting anyway.
Even b-spline vector mask tool would have no predefined shapes. Users would draw a circle if they want a circle and then they could paint in it, making separate fill tool unnecessary.

In Pro there would be (somewhat sorted by importance):
- Digital brush with opacity and non-multiplicative strokes and with custom shapes (just an ordinary pressure sensitive round brush found in every other package, it would have no texture and it would make many things instantly possible)
- Support for glazing in oil tool
- Blending tools
- Color correction tools (levels, curves, hsl are indeed enough)
- Adjustment layers with above color correctors
- Layer blend modes (screen, color, multiply etc) with opacity
- Layer masks/stencils (masks are great!)
- Simple b-polygon tool for making cutout masks/stencils and sharp edges (curved arcs, circles, polygons and whatsoever with a single tool)
- Painting access to channels data, so that I could make wet pixels dry selectively and other unnatural things. This would allow a lot.
- Color management / profiles for keeping consistent look
- Watercolor tool
- Ink tool
- Clone tool or copy/pasting parts of the image - clone tool could fit the painting approach better
- Perspective guides (grid floor, cubes, cones and spheres), maybe even loading some geometry/camera data for camera projection paintings
- Waterlevel tool, which would look like a thermometer: when user drags it down, layer gets dry, when it is moved up, layer gets more humid - this would allow selective and temporary drying of paints
- Support for big images with fast updating for big tools (scanline approach?)
- Enhanced pencil (not that additive as it is now)
- 32/bpc/16bpc/HDRI support for film-level color steps
- Clever hotkeys for both left-handed and right-handed users

Prepress people can make color separations better than most illustrators, so CMYK color separations are not a must if color management is there.

And as I am animator by trade, I would like to have some kind of frame management for quickly moving between different images in numbered image sequence. Same layers and such would exist in all frames, only layer contents would change. It would allow ink/paint with oils and stuff!

I kinda like that waterlevel control widget idea..

edit: typo

[aesthitic]

i would have to say, a watercolor tool would be awesome to see sometime soon... but i'm afraid it would be harder to program than any of the other tools, since watercolor can be unpredictable and lends itself a new set of techniques that is not quite the same as oil/acrylics... wet on wet as mentioned and salt drying the water to produce watercolor effects would be really hard to program.

well i think so anyways, but the art rage team i'm sure can handle such a challenge :wink:

but as for a pro version, i would say just keep art rage as it is. it's very simple and acts exactly like natural media, it's amazing.

the only other thing i could think of would be better memory management (always a plus) for bigger resolution projects, and yes, CMYK and ICC color matching would be great for print purposes. but even then i'm sure there are free programs out there for color correcting... if not, then hey, there's photoshop :)